The Alice's Restaurant Anti-Excommunication Movement

We were skimming posts in Google Blogsearch looking to catch up on women's ordination and reading about the Anglican women bishop controversies in England, when we discovered a post by The Timman of Saint Louis Catholic. The Timman quoted an article by John A. Colvin of the Advocate River parishes bureau where in John stated; "A Lutcher-born Catholic priest facing excommunication from the Roman Catholic Church for his public stance advocating ordination of women priests has recently received the support of 113 nuns."

Oh, my! 133 nuns! That's nearly every nun in the U.S., isn't it? Many Catholics and non-Catholics would have you think so. Let's check.

The United States Conference of Catholic Bishops, the official organization of the Catholic hierarchy in the US, reports in their statistics there are 63,032 vowed religious sisters in the U.S.. According to my calculator, dividing 113 by 63,032 and rounding up (let's be charitable), 113 is .2% of all vowed religious sisters.

Thus, Roy has not received the support of 99.8% of vowed religious sisters. Significant? We think so.

To paraphrase Arlo Guthrie about Father Roy's .2% support:

"Friends they may thinks it's a movement! And that's what it is, the Alice's Restaurant anti-excommunication movement, and all you got to do to join is sing it the next time it come's around on the guitar. With feeling."


Related Posts:
One God in Four Persons
Womenpriests Excommunicated
Ordination Prayer for Women Deacons Differs


Source: Here's a Surprise

Obama for Catholic Women Ordination?

Sister Catherine Pinkerton, a founder of the Cleveland Women’s Ordination Conference, has been selected to be the Catholic prayer voice at the Democratic Party Convention in Denver. Sister Catherine has been an "advisor" to the Obama campaign on all things Catholic.

A few observations on this:

- Other invited religious are ordained clergy, except for Catholic religious. An Orthodox Archbishop was invited to speak while the local Catholic bishop was invited only to "observe."

- The elevation of Sister Catherine as an ordained clergy equal seems to be an implicit endorsement of women's ordination by the party and campaign. Non-Catholic individuals and organizations should avoid any perceived intanglement in the tar baby of women's ordination.

- Sister Catherine is from Ohio, which has a significant Catholic population and which did not support Kerry in 2004. I don't see how the selection of Sister Catherine improves things in Ohio. It likely will result in more anti-Obama Catholic activity.

- Canon law 1371 has sometimes been invoked by bishops to restrict speaking by dissident nuns. What actions Archbishop Chaput may take or consider is unknown at this time. Similar past events by others have resulted in the issue of a precept of obedience.

While there is much to admire concerning Sister Catherine's work on social justice issues like immigration and globalization, Sister Catherine's clear dissent with Catholic teaching on women's ordination marks her as outside orthodox Catholicism. The blatant attempt to target poorly catechised Catholics speaks volumes regarding the desperation of the Obama campaign and the Democratic Party.

The campaign and party should have recruited Catholic advisors from Steubenville versus Cleveland.

Source: Nun from Cleveland, Catherine Pinkerton, to offer prayer at Democratic National Convention

Banned!

Christian Apologetics Society has been banned!

Not by Blogger, Google, Technorati, or anyone else that really counts. No, we have been banned by the more tolerant and open-minded Spirit of Vatican 2 "Catholic" Faith Community [not currently affiliated with the Diocese of Knoxville].

Why have we been banned?

For: PH, T, R, and O.

They consider this blog to contain Phariseeism (PH), Traditionalism (T), Republicanism (R), and Offensive (O, anti-womyn, anti-GLBTNA, etc.) Unfortunately, their site offers no criteria as to what constitutes offenses under each criteria, who makes the determinations, nor any appeal process, if any.

Regarding Phariseeism, one would think that requires someone to observe one's actions and deeds and compare them to one's words. Oh, no! They're watching me! (You're not paranoid if they really are out to get you.)

We suspect the charge of Traditionalism is either because we created some Latin and Greek language files for the e-Sword Bible software or that we quote from the early Christians. We do hold ourselves to the standard of presenting authentic Christian doctrine.

We find the charge of Republicanism interesting in that we volunteered for the Dean campaign in a very cold Iowa.

We suspect CAS tripped the Offensive criteria not because of anti-GLBTNA nor being anti-womyn, but because we routinely post against the Roman Catholic Woman Priest apostates. That doesn't make the site anti-womyn, just anti-womenpriest.

An anti-GLBTNA charge would be pretty amazing considering how many times we have commented on anti-gay posts reminding fellow Christian bloggers that GLBTNA are children of God with an immortal soul made in His image and that God has a perfect plan for their salvation. GLBTNA are most welcome to worship with us.

Any way, looking at the list, we're in good company and must be doing something right. Also banned are Amy Wellborn, Jimmy Akin, and the Cafeteria Is Closed. All favorite reads of ours.

Here's the list of other blogs banned by Spirit of Vatican 2 "Catholic" Faith Community and the SOV2 blog rating codes:

Banned Websites and Blogs

Absolutely No Spin: T,F,C
Ad Dominum: PH,C,T
Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam: PH,R,C,F
Adam's Ale: C+,T,EM
Adoro Te Devote: PH,O
Adrienne's Catholic Corner: PH,O,C,T,R,EM
Amy Wellborn: PH,C+,T,O
Astonished, Yet at Home: PH,C,RT
B Movie Catechism: PH,F
Back to Catholicism: PH,T,C
Bonfire of the Vanities: PH,C+,T,F,UM,POD
Cafeteria is Closed: PH,T,C,F,EM,O,R
Called By Name: C+,T,F
Catholic Caveman: PH,O,T,F,EM,R
Catholic Dads: PH,T,O
Catholic Pillow Fight: PH,F,O,R
Catholic Sensibility: P1
Catholics Against Rudy: PH,NC,O,C,T,R
Chironomo's Podium: PH,F,T+,O,EM,C
Christian Apologetics Society: PH,T,R,O
Creative Minority Report: PH,C+,F,T
Dad29: R+,O,T
Digital Hairshirt: PH,T,C,O,F
Domine, da mihi hanc aquam: PH,T,C,R,EM,O,F++
Doxology: PH,C,T
Dyspeptic Mutterings: PH,C,EM,RT,R,F
Everything You Knew is Wrong: PH,O,T,BS,NC
Freelanders: PH,T,C,O
Jimmy Akin: PH,T,C,F
Kyrie Eleison: PH,T,C,F,O,EM,R
L.A. Catholic: PH,C,O,R
Orthometer: PH,C+,T,F,O,R
Overheard in the Sacristy: PH,T,C+,F
Paramedic Golden Girl: PH,C,T
Peace & Quiet: PH,C+,T,O,H
Pope Benedict Fan Club: PH,C++,T,F,NC
Pro Ecclesia: PH,R,C,T,O
Pur Autre Vie: PH,T,C,F,O+
Quo Vadis?: PH,T+,F,C
Recovering Dissident Catholic: PH,C,T
Regular Thoughts: PH,C,T,EM,O,F,R
Rise of the TOB: PH,C,T,EM,F,O++
Roman Sacristan: C,T,F,M
Roving Medievalist: PH,C,T,EM,F
Sci Fi Catholic
Shoved To Them: PH,O,C
Simon-Peter Says: PH,C,T,F
SSLI: PH,C+,T,F,EM
St. Fiacre's Garden: PH,O,T
St. Monica's Kneeler: PH,C,T
Sterquilinium: PH,C,T,F,O,R
The Curt Jester: PH,T,O,R
The Provincial Emails: PH,R,C,O
The Vatican: PH,C+,T,F,O,R,EM
Tom & Jeffy: PH,C,R
Totus Pius: PH,C+,T+,F,EM,RC,RT,O
Troglodyte: PH,C,R,O
Vivificat: PH,F,T,O+,C,EM
Ward Wide Web: PH,T,F,O

Blog Rating Codes

AM - Anti-Marty Haugen
BS - Bells & Smells
C - Clericalism
C+ - Extreme Clericalism
CF - Cathlofascist
EM - Extreme Medievalism
F - Funny Languages
H - Homeschoolers
IT - Intolerant
NC - Neocatholic
NLU - Not Like Us
O - Offensive (anti-womyn, anti-GLBTNA, etc)
PH - Phariseeism
PI - Progressive Level 1
PII - Progressive Level 2
PIII - Progressive Level 3
POD - Pious, Overly-Devotional
R - Republicanism
RT - Radical Traditionalism
T - Traditionalism
UM - Ultramontanism

Source: Spirit of Vatican 2

One God in Four Persons

"Let us continue our prayer in the name of our God, who is mother, father, son and Holy Spirit."

Thus spoke Mother Marie David, a Roman Catholic Woman Priest, at Saint Mary Magdala's chapel, in Harwichport, MA. Saint Mary Magdala's chapel is conveniently located in Mother Marie's backyard, behind her bed and breakfast. Mother seems to agree with Latter Day Saints and early Baptists eclessiology regarding unpaid clergy.

This is a good example of Catholic objections to the RCWP movement. The RCWP women aren't solely seeking to right a doctrinal wrong against women, so much as to remake the Church in their own image. Unintentionally, Mother Marie has poisoned the well by the introduction of her heresy. Had Mother Marie been content to remain faithful to Church doctrine, Mother might could have served as an example. Now, Mother Marie has justified her excommunication.

Perhaps some charitable Christian in her neighborhood on Cape Cod will drop by and explain the 2,000 year-old doctrine of the Trinity to Mother Marie. Please pray for Mother Marie and all the Mothers of the RCWP that have placed themselves outside of the Church.

O my Jesus, forgive us our sins. Save us from the fires of Hell; lead all souls into Heaven, especially those in most need of Thy mercy. Amen.

Update

It seems that Mother Marie does indeed charge for her services. Mother charges her flock $575 for weddings. An extra $75 if you want her to attend the rehersal.

Mother also dabbles in Reiki and labyrinths. It might be an interesting exercise to build a matrix and see how many of the RCWP have similar interests. I sense some commonality among the RCWP womyn.

Mother is a married to a former Latin Rite Catholic priest, who has since married Mother and is now a priest of the International Catholic Apostolic Vicariate of the Good Shepherd. Neither "priest" offers any thelogy on how an ordained Catholic priest may marry.

Source: A Woman's Parish

Womenpriests Excommunicated

The big religious news story of the week seems to be Catholic Archbishop Burke of Saint Louis imposing some good old-fashioned church discipline on two seperated Catholic women. The women in question simulated ordination as Catholic priests in willful disobediance of their church. Much like Peter's three time denial of Christ, the women also denied three times any attempts at reconciliation with the church. Since the women didn't understand that they had automatically excommunicated themselves by their actions and claimed not to have been excommunicated for their simulated odination, the Archbishop humored the women by presenting them with formal decrees of excommunication. We'll bet that came as a surprise since these women and their fellow separated sisters have long taken pride in claiming that none of the priestesses have been excommunicated beyond the original group.

The official response seems to be from priestess Bridget Mary. "Roman Catholic Womenpriests reject the penalties of excommunication, interdict, and any other punitive actions..." Interesting. Rather than rejecting the excommunication, the priestesses seem to acknowledge that they are under excommunication, they just reject the penalties.

Rather than address the decree of excommunication and offer any defense as to why the women are not guilty of schism, Bridget Mary's response continues for six full paragraphs starting with a repetition of urban legends regarding women in the early church. Bridget Mary follows with an erroneous appeal to sensus fidelium by stating "Since 70% of U.S. Catholics favor women’s ordination". As Catholics in the U.S. make up less than 5% of the Catholic Church, Bridget Mary is claiming that this 4% constitutes the sense of the faithfull without any input from or surveying of the remaining 96% of the Catholic Church. Nonsense.

Bridget Mary continues on with an out-of-context quote from the current Pope on the need to follow conscience over ecclesial authority. Conveniently Bridget Mary omits the accompanying requirement to inform and develop our conscience to conform to Christ's Church.

Bridget Mary follows that weak argument with "Roman Catholic Church laws are often contradictory." The claim now is that canon 1024 limiting ordination to men contradicts canon 894 which states that baptism is the gateway to the sacraments. Rather than explain the supposed contradiction, Bridget Mary tosses in an opinion by Ida Raming, a fellow excommunicated priestess. Baptism is indeed the gateway to the sacraments because without baptism a person remains a sinner and is incapable of receiving the graces imparted by God through the sacraments. Baptism does not guarantee one will ever receive any of the following sacraments, but does make their reception possible, provided all other conditions are met. There is no contradiction between the two canons.

Bridget Mary then states "Recent scholarship affirms that women were ordained in the first twelve hundred years of the church’s history." Ordained to what? Bridget Mary claims to Holy Orders; however, we recently examined how the ordination for women deacons did/does not include Holy Orders, but ordination to service.

Bridget Mary concludes with "Roman Catholic Womenpriests are leading the way to a renewed Roman Catholic Church...". Don't think so. Over 600 attended the simulated ordination, but only about 35 now attend services by the two priestesses. A photo of Bridget Mary's home church also shows a handful of elderly attendees. The future church is not present in the photo. Neither example bodes well for a "renewed" church, but for a historically quick death of a heretical schism that will likely become an interesting footnote in church history.

Again to recap, the women priestesses acknowledge being excommunicated, reject the penalties, and they and their parent organization offer no rebuttal to the charges of schism beyond some interesting, but disassociated, tidbits of history and personal opinion. Seemingly, none of the 53 existing priestesses is a canon lawyer or that part of their priestly formation was omitted. The reality show continues.

Others with interesting comments on the excommunication:

Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam

In the Light of the Law

ST. John's Valdosta Blog

Excommunication Blotter

Source: St. Louis Post-Dispatch

Ordination Prayer for Women Deacons Differs

Finalmente! At long last, I have had the "Ah ha!" moment and can now explain and prove the difference in male and female deacons from the early Church. The answer lies within the two different prayers found within the existing Orthodox faith. God bless the poster on the troparion to Saint Phoebe the Deaconess on the Peter Akinola blog and for commenter 7 for pointing to anastasis.org.uk .

ORDER FOR THE ORDINATION OF A WOMAN DEACON

Holy and All-powerful God, through the birth in flesh of your Only-begotten Son and our God from a Virgin you sanctified woman, and granted not only to men but also to women the grace and visitation of the Holy Spirit. Now, Master, look upon this servant of yours also, call her to the work of your service and send down upon her the rich gift of your Holy Spirit. Guard her in your Orthodox faith in a blameless way of life in accordance with what is well pleasing to you, as she fulfils her ministry at every moment.

ORDER FOR THE ORDINATION OF A DEACON

Lord, our God, by your foreknowledge you send down the gift of your Holy Spirit upon those who are appointed by your inscrutable power to become ministers and to assist in the service of your most pure Mysteries.

Did you spot the difference? Only the male deacon is ordained to minister and to assist in the Eucharist (pure Mysteries). Female deacons are ordained to the work of service, which does NOT include the Eucharist. This difference in ordination prayers aligns the two groups of deacons perfectly with the historic position of deacons within the Church. The work of service for female deacons consisted largely of assisting female converts during baptism. (Early Christians were naked during baptism, just like modern day Copts are naked during baptism.)

The Roman Catholic Womenpriests have devoted considerable space to providing the ordination rite for Deaconesses and to their comparison to the ordination of male deacons. On first glance, the presence of an ordination rite for women deacons and a comparison chart showing "identical" rites seems to be prima facia evidence for the sacramental ordination of women deacons. Except, the writer of the Roman Catholic Womenpriests text omitted mentioning that the ordination prayers are distinctly and sacramentally different between male and female deacons. This omission may be either accidental or deliberate. We'll have to take the more charitable stance and assume that this was accidental. If accidental, then the comparison table will eventually be corrected to mention the difference in ordination prayeer.

So, it doesn't matter one iota that an ordination rite exists or how similar the two ordinations rites are or even how many icons of Phoebe depict her wearing a deacons stole, there was and still is a major difference in the ordination rites of male and female deacons.

Source: ORDER FOR THE ORDINATION OF A WOMAN DEACON

roman cathlic womenpriets

"roman cathlic womenpriets". That's what it says in my site statistics. One of the more interesting aspects of managing an apologetics blog, or any blog for that matter, is reviewing the site statistics. Often after pouring one's heart and soul into a post, one discovers that few people care. Other times, one writes something that you're sure only appeals to one's own ego and discovers a niche market.

I've always been one to share information and see no reason not to share the search terms that have brought visitors to CAS this past month. Perhaps one of these terms will inspire someone to fill yet another niche. Here are some of the things which have been typed into various search engines and resulted in someone choosing to click through to CAS:

womenpriests
chrstian perception in the society
christian apologetics + eucharist
christianity doing in society
esword nwt
true backup of apologetics
roman cathlic womenpriets
augustine christian apologetic
baptist apologetics
born again christian apologetics
jeremy rutledge blog
the society of christian apologetics
1611 kjv "margin notes"
christian apologetics: meaning of "remembrance of me"
early christian apologetics
"esword-files"
ash wednesday jehovah's witness
baptists and lent
born again christian graph
charts on celibacy in the church
christian apologetics scripture
christian blogspot
church should prepare for apologetics
covenant baptist rutledge
eucharist misquote ignatius false catholic doctrine
fathers vestaments
most powerful apologetic for christianity
significance o christian ordination

Personally, "most powerful apologetic for christianity" would be a wonderful topic for an apologetics blog. We'll have to give that some thought and research.

As you can see, many entries are just darn right puzzling. What was the person who searched on "true backup of apologetics" actually seeking? "ash wednesday" and "jehovah's witness" just don't look like they ever belong side-by-side.

In view of the recent Pew study on religion, I agree with the anonymous visitor who entered "church should prepare for apologetics". Amen! Too few Christians engage in apologetics. I was encouraged to learn while tracking back on some of the referring sites that there are at least 1,281 Catholic blogs. I'd be curious to discover how many Baptist, Methodist, Anglican and other blogs are in existance.

I try to keep the many search phrases in mind as I write. For example, someone searched for "1611 kjv margin notes", so in my post on the 1611 KJV Bible being available online, I included mention of the margin notes and linked to two images of the margin notes. I'm a big believer in finding out what your customers want and then giving it to them.

Source: Google Analytics

Liturgical Abuse By Womenpriests

The recent Womenpriests issue by a "Catholic" magazine and the pending announcement of the formal excommunication of two Saint Louis area Womenpriests has prompted me to document my recent observations and interpretation of events.

First, the Womenpriests might could have been taken seriously and would have had a stronger case had they been more faithful to the Mass. Unfortunately, the Womenpriests have not limited their disobediance to the Church to just women's ordination but to grave liturgical abuse:

- Confecting rice cakes for communion.
- Confecting grape juice for communion.
- Use of glass vessels for the "Eucharist".
- Consecrating wine in a carafe for later pouring.

If at some future date the Catholic Church should determine that it does have the authority to ordain women, Catholics would still expect any Womanpriest to follow the General Instruction of the Roman Missal (GIRM) and confect a valid Eucharist. These first priestesses have poisoned the Eucharistic well, either intentionally or accidentally.

Second, the replies of the two Saint Louis area Womenpriests don't bode well for the long term health of the womenpriest movement. Their statements regarding disassembling the ecclesiastical structure and authority of the church would turn their "churches" into Protestant-styled churches. The lack of centralized authority and ecclesiastical structure has led to the fracturing and babel of doctrines and beliefs in the Protestant world. Have these ladies studied no church history? Have they not read of the Reformation?

The one thing I find intersesting is the return of young Catholics to the traditional Latin Mass. It's quite possible that, at a future date, a formal Latin liturgy may become the primary indicator of a valid Catholic Mass. How would Catholics know that they are where they are supposed to be? A male priest in ornate vestaments with his back to you just said "Oramus".

Source: Church Ladies Be Damned, Part 2

How to Identify A Faux Ordination

As many Christians, Muslims, agnostics, theists and atheists, particularly those among the press, are having difficulty identifying Catholic ordinations from faux ordinations, I have assembled a small chart to facilitate in rapid identification of Catholic ordinations from faux ordinations with a high probability of success.

Marks	Catholic	Faux
Location	Catholic church	boat, retreat
Deity	God	God/de
Vessels	precious metals	glass
Bishop	male	female
Priests	male	female
Deacons	male	female
Candidates	male	female
Guests	nuns	former nuns

So, the next time you read a story about a Catholic ordination, just check your copy of the chart. Before long, your identification skills will improve and you will no longer need a chart.

Former Nuns Host Womenpriests' "Ordination"

On Sunday, July 22, 2007, the Immaculate Heart Community, a group of former Catholic nuns, hosted a gathering of members and guests of Roman Catholic Womenpriests (RCWP) at the community's La Casa de Maria on Bosque Road outside of Santa Barbara, California. An "ordination" ceremony took place at about 3:41 p.m. that afternoon. One woman was "ordained" a priest. Two other women were "ordained" deacons.

While Santa Barbara Independent reporter Martha Sadler and photographer Paul Wellman were sworn to secrecy as to the ceremony's location, Catholic bloggers quickly recognized the retreat center, which has hosted past women's ordination events, such as the Conversation and Celebration of Women Called held last year on Saturday, February 18, 2006.

The newspaper account reported that the women "are part of a movement from within the Roman Catholic Church". However, that is not the case as the women and their hosts have in fact separated from the Catholic Church by their actions. Canon law is clear that ex communication automatically occurs for the candidates, presiders, and many of the attendees. Formal notification by the Church is not required.

Additional "ordinations" are planned for today, July 28, in Portland, Oregon and on Sunday, August 12, in Minneapolis, Minnesota.

While women's ordination is a popular modern heresy, the Catholic Church has definitively decided the matter for Catholics. Pope John Paul II declared in Ordinatio Sacerdotalis in 1994; "I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church's faithful."

We have previously discussed the lack of valid matter, and thus the lack of a valid sacrament, in the case of women's ordination. However, as an apologist I'd be curious as to what authority these women claim that the Bishop of Rome and the Church find lacking for themselves. Ladies?

Source: Santa Barbara Independent